2006-01-22 [The Blonde Witch]: *chuckles* you said it XD

2006-01-22 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: true, true.....Hey, if I don't LOOK goth, but I get along well with gothic people, what does that make me? oO

2006-01-22 [Kai Crewger]: otakunekosan, friend-of-the-goth

2006-01-22 [windowframe]: Uhm, a closet someone who gets along well with goths? O.o

2006-01-22 [Kai Crewger]: a goth sympathizer! (or however you spell it :P)

2006-01-22 [Lunnie]: I'm a closet-emo! @__@

2006-01-22 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: whee okay! I also get along with.... well.... just about everyone! ^^ But not brainwashed idiots.... >.> no, not with those..... everyone else, tho! ^.^ I'm good with!

2006-01-22 [Jeesum Crowe]: lskjdlskjflks! I have no control over my fingers but only for brief dsfljn;dn moments!

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: God...you ARE all aware that the only people who ever qualified as Goths are all dead. Please tell me you realize this.

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: I don't even understand why people started out this whole emo goth style, they ruin and insult history. -blames slipknot or something-

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: It's a collective ignorance.

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: I guess so. I usually call those so called goths emos. ;P

2006-01-23 [iippo]: When I was young people who wore black and too much make-up were either satanists or metalheads, and usually D&D nerds too so we paid them never mind. I don't get it where this goth thing came from all of the sudden. Is it like some kind opressive action against the Playboy-fashion? "We wear pink n black too and are sexy but we're not sluts!" o.O;

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: Lol, I personally think a lot of those girl goths become sluts anyways. xD

2006-01-23 [iippo]: The boy-goths as well :P

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: My only problem is the name. I wear a trenchcoat and mostly black, but do you know what I call myself? Matt.

2006-01-23 [iippo]: Don't tell that to the goths, otherwise they'll start another feffing trend called 'matts'. X_O

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: lmao the "goth" are just plain emos that don't want to face it.

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: "Goth"s don't turn into sluts because they are "Goths".

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: Did I say _ALL_ the "goths" turn into sluts because they are? No Is aid a lot of them end up being sluts, and I didn't mean become, but are before they even adopt the style.

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: Goths are no more likely than anyone else.

2006-01-23 [Kéioko Matsukaze]: ... What's this about goths?

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: Ugh...nevermind...

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: -sighs- anyways yea, nevermind.

2006-01-23 [Leara]: The discussion from what I read wasn't about Goths anyways, but kids that follow a trend because it gets they attention. Ask any of them what goth is, and I garantee(I can't spell that>.<) they won't know what it actually is. The word is heavily misused, calling them 'goths' is just giving them what they want.

2006-01-23 [Faulty Limerence]: Yes I'm well aware. That was my point in the first place. Anyway, I'm going to bed.

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: I am a Goth, so to speak...at least my family tree branches in that direction...not so sure I should be proud of that.

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: Eh, we weren't talking about the actual Goths so don't worry about what has been said here. I think Goths, as known by history, are great people.

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: I know that....I was on the same track....*winks*

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: ;o~ -eats your face- xD

2006-01-23 [Leara]: Lunnie's a cannibal. >.>

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: kinky

2006-01-23 [Lunnie]: Yeah, so? xD

2006-01-23 [iippo]: I was under the impression that goths in history were some barbarians o.O And have no real link to the 'gothic' style in architechture.

2006-01-23 [Blade503]: goths were once german or russian tribe >< had nothing to do with black and i think think goths got their 'gothic' from the gargoyals found on many gothic style buildings and this is going way to fair, but i think they got their spike ideas from the pointed arches from gothic style too

2006-01-23 [windowframe]: Or from the punks.

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: You know, [iippo] that was my point. These kids go around claiming to be Goth/Gothic but, don't realize what they are claiming to be. To me, as has already been stated, kids who wear black, spike their hair and wear dog chains (in my days) were called punks. I was being sarcastic by saying "Hey look! I am a Goth!" Because techinically, I am by German descent.

2006-01-23 [NamelessMerc]: o.0; And I thought my ramblings were random... Who really gives a damn what label people place on themselves anyways?

2006-01-23 [windowframe]: I do, mine's dry clean only. I'll be damned if I'm going through a normal wash. o.o

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: *pulls hair out* Nevermind....sarcasam just isn't your thing, is it? Ok, let me try to explain this (you can't see me but, I am smiling) I am a perky little red-hair happy person who wears pink and glitter. I smile a lot. I like fluffy cute things, hence the humor in stating..."I am a Goth"....

2006-01-23 [Cassave]: There's also a difference between ostrogoths and visigoths.

2006-01-23 [NamelessMerc]: And here it goes... Bah, I hate labels, everyone does, so discussing the nature of said labels is fruitless, it's only perpetuating the problem.

2006-01-23 [deus-ex-machina]: *puts hand up* I like labels.

2006-01-23 [NamelessMerc]: You'd like to be called a 'punk', 'goth', 'chav', 'townie' or something equally annoyingly generic?

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: Sure, why not. How does it really matter in the grand scheme of things. when you are 30 or 40, is it really going to matter that your expressionalism was described as something you were mildly offended by. I have been called a prep before...you don't see me crying. "What's in a name?....for a rose called by any other name would still smell as sweet..."

2006-01-23 [NamelessMerc]: I just prefer to ignore the idea altogether. I've never been labeled the same thing twice anyway, I have days where I look 'gothic' and other days where I look 'townie'. "it's all in the eye of the beholder".

2006-01-23 [windowframe]: I got asked if I was a hippie and a goth in the same day ^^ Who cares what people call you, Meh, I don't have much sympathy for people who, say; dress in black, go ott w/ their eyeliner, then whine when they get called goth. If the label pisses you off, don't dress like that. O.o

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: Well the photo in your house reminds me of old-school punk...which is cool in my book...but, you need an original label..everyone does. Let's see. You are an unparagoned-chimera

2006-01-23 [NamelessMerc]: Wait, the photo in who's house?

2006-01-23 [Veltzeh]: It gets much worse when the labels get extended to gender... but I probably really shouldn't talk about that :P

2006-01-23 [Lothuriel]: in your house [NamelessMerc]...

2006-01-24 [iippo]: Label gets extended to gender? How does that happen? "You are a male goth!!" o.O; Anyhoo, in linguistics-way I find the ne meaning for "goth" fascinating and at some point I was on about other words that mean something else in the old times, when as in now it means something else. A lame example would be Windows or Apple. Words that have evolved.

2006-01-24 [Lothuriel]: Apple was once "potatoe of the earth". Still is that translated from many languages to english...never quite understood that.

2006-01-24 [Veltzeh]: [iippo]: Nah, just "you are male!" :P

2006-01-24 [iippo]: No I mean Apple computers as in opposed to the fruit (lame example, I know).

2006-01-24 [deus-ex-machina]: If people were learned in any field where labels could arise, then there would be compliments, or at least a lack of offense in the names. I mean 'hippy', 'queer', 'goth', 'fatty' - if you knew anything - you'd know better. No one seems to have a problem laughing at a goth, or a fat person, or a gay person... but if they understood that those people produced great things or possibly couldn't help it... I'm sure some people would look elsewhere for their name calling.

2006-01-24 [Jeesum Crowe]: Hippies sucked. They were crazy psycho political radicals. That's never cool, man. Unprotected sex 'n shit, no way. I mean, Goths had a hand in taking down Rome, that's pretty cool. And fat people... never did anything collectively... And gay people... also never really did anything collectively but be gay... which is cool, but not amazing.

2006-01-24 [Fizban]: as opposed to the potatoe of space??, becuase you can have a potatoe, but you cant have a potatoe of the earth unless you have a potatoe of space to be its opposite or the name in my mind just doesnt make sense and it needs a new name...potatoe of the sea?

2006-01-24 [Jeesum Crowe]: Potato of the water. Potato of the air. Potato of the fire. They're potato elements.

2006-01-24 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: Yes, but then what is opposite of sea? You'd have to then have a potato of the land, which is the same as earth. Oh, and also a possible connection: the texture. they're.....kinda....similar...... ><

2006-01-24 [Kai Crewger]: I think the real question here is, why potatoes? Why not lemons, or key lime pies?

2006-01-25 [deus-ex-machina]: I'm glad I'm only judging your RPing characters. Fucking weirdos. =P

2006-01-25 [Kai Crewger]: *laughs* you know you love it.

2006-01-25 [iippo]: Most youth cultures have a political agenda (most want peace, or maybe anarchy, or end to poverty or love for all), but I'm yet to find out what that is for goths.

2006-01-25 [Kai Crewger]: hmm... you're right, I can't really think of one...

2006-01-25 [Kai Crewger]: it's like my bro said. Goths and their kind aren't a clique, they're a steriotype

2006-01-25 [Fizban]: But goths still group together....like punk and anarchy seem to go together around where I live, I mean they are lazy dont really care, but talk of anarchy and all that crap hmmm

2006-01-25 [iippo]: When punk was born, it was more about politics with all the feff going on in England at that time (unemployment and what have you). Class War.

2006-01-25 [Fizban]: huh, well whaddya know...

2006-01-25 [Faulty Limerence]: Please stop saying feff. It's making my inner editor go crazy.

2006-01-25 [Jeesum Crowe]: Punk is about politics. Like hippies are about politics. You're not punk unless you're political. It was rebellion. Goths are against conformity. But they conform. They're dumb.

2006-01-25 [Faulty Limerence]: Stop calling them dumb. There is no uniqueness left really if you think about it. Everyone is conforming to something if you look at it from a purely critical standpoint. Can't you people critique something without insulting it?! Seriously.

2006-01-25 [iippo]: Ah-ha! Everyone conforms! That's what I've been saying since the dawn of time. The special thing these days is to say "I conform and I'm proud of it!" // Sorry, feff is here to stay, it will replace all other F-words in existance (except faff which is equally cool but only has one meaning).

2006-01-25 [Blood Raven]: perhaps goths are a youth group without a political agenda, and distinguish themselves from others through opinionlessness. And because they can't make a political statement, they make a general one by mainly dressing in black, often trying to maintain some 'shocking' effect. What this statement might be, I don't know. Perhaps they think the world is going to die and they wear black because they mourn for it. Perhaps they think it's fashionable, or perhaps it's just 'stay away' because they're afraid of the world...

2006-01-25 [NamelessMerc]: Or, because black goes with everything.

2006-01-25 [NamelessMerc]: Personally all my friends wear black because that's the only colour the shops we buy from stock. Obviously, nowadays we have neon green, pink, orange etc., but for people who aren't attracted to those colours it's black or nothing. At least in Sheffield. Oh, and red, can't forget about bright red.

2006-01-25 [Kai Crewger]: I like the first, third, and Merc's theory. ^^ There's a statement in there somewhere, but it's hard to figure out exactly what, since goth is a more general term than skater, or prep, or something like that.

2006-01-25 [NamelessMerc]: Aye, I wear blue-jeans, grey t-shirts and Vans, but apparently I'm a goth. That confuses me a little. Maybe it's my leather jacket or my eyeliner.

2006-01-25 [Blood Raven]: it's probably the eyeliner. Everybody wearing make-up or over 40% black clothing has become a 'goth' nowadays (to outsiders anyway). That's what happening in my town anyway, especially hip-hoppers and goths are beginnining to hold grudges against eachother...

2006-01-25 [iippo]: A male-friend of mine made that same colour-observation. He wanted a new suit ("cause every girl's crazy bout a sharp-dressed ma-han!"), but not black or deep blue. And there just wan't any selection outside those two. I dunno why but I've taken a liking to red; and strangely enough, red usually looks stunning on a guy.

2006-01-25 [Delladreing]: *agrees wholeheartedly* but then again I have a slight obession with red >.>

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Baka-san, your name has 'idiot' in it. Don't tell me not to say 'dumb.' Red is hot. It's just like... a woman in a red dress, that's sexy. Red lipstick, that's sexy. A guy in red, it's sexy!

2006-01-26 [Tainted Guardian]: My fav is Fullmetal Alchemist by far. Some people don't like the drama or the plot is too confusing for them.

2006-01-26 [Duredhel]: FMA! yaaaay! XD! *ejem >_> sorry... huge FMA fan*

2006-01-26 [Tainted Guardian]: *blinks then smiles*

2006-01-26 [Faulty Limerence]: Jeesum, I will thank you politely not to make fun of my name. I am WELL aware what it means. Why the hell else would I use it. I'm sick of people telling me. It's a nickname. Live with it. It does not make me an idiot in any form. And I didn't necessarily tell you to stop saying the word stupid, merely to learn how to critique something without insulting it.

2006-01-26 [Tainted Guardian]: Easy cheif. no need to be a Doshi oma Doma.

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: I wasn't critiquing anyone. I was insulting them. Critiquing implies a form of helping them while you do it. I was making fun of them. It's no critique.

2006-01-26 [Faulty Limerence]: *sigh*

2006-01-26 [Duredhel]: I'll have to go with Jeesum in this one.

2006-01-26 [Faulty Limerence]: So you agree with insulting people because you don't like the way they think?

2006-01-26 [Leara]: People, stop bickering and purposely insulting each other on an official wiki. Take it to your messages if you feel so passionate about making fun of others.

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Why else do you insult people?

2006-01-26 [Leara]: As I've said, STOP bickering on an official wiki and purposely causing trouble.

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Alright, sorry.

2006-01-26 [Duredhel]: No, I agree with the fact that the what JeesumCrowe did was not a critique, as Baka-san said ^_^

2006-01-26 [iippo]: Yeah, lets steer away from the hate-stuff. *ish a hippie*

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: (You psycho political radicalist!) I love you, odd!!.

2006-01-26 [windowframe]: Anyone who doesn't like the word feff can now take their crazy little editor and toddle of this page. Because feff > everyone. Damnit.

2006-01-26 [Lunnie]: -pets silver- It's ok ;D Breath~

2006-01-26 [Tainted Guardian]: Baka there is no point in arguing you know. Typed words do little if nothing to sway the opinions of others. So just stop the defence and just let it slide. It's all you can really do you know.

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Why is it that people have conversations all the time on the contestants page but the second I say something, people say "Shut up! This isn't for conversation!" WHYYY?!

2006-01-26 [Leara]: Purposely insulting others is far from being a conversation. :P

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: This isn't the contestants page... And I wasn't purposely insulting anyone, I was defending myself.

2006-01-26 [Leara]: It doesn't matter if this page is open for chatting or not, its still an official wiki where people shouldn't start bickering.

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Aye, bickering should be saved for more domestic environments XD It's not like the spectators in Parliament, or Congress, ever argue, is it? <.<; >.>; (Are there even spectators in Congress???)

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: You're impossible, the lot of you. *hmphs*

2006-01-26 [windowframe]: Y'know, if we said 'no bickering' there'd be a 90% drop or so in the conversations levels. :\

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Especially with me around!

2006-01-26 [Leara]: Well, when they bicker about something thats not even contest related, and send insult around on an official page, it's annoying. :P

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Well, we dropped it like hours and hours ago and yet even when I ask a question I still get stabbed about it. A bit hypocritical if you ask me.

2006-01-26 [Leara]: Yeah, where ever you get hypocritical from answering a question. :P

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: I asked why people tell me to shut up on the contestants page when they're have a conversation and I pop in on it and you said "insulting isn't conversation," which is a stab at me, and a stab is an insult. You purposely insulted me!

2006-01-26 [Kai Crewger]: bickering again!

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: I'M A VICTIM!

2006-01-26 [Kai Crewger]: stop! be victimized somewhere else!

2006-01-26 [Leara]: That wasn't an insult, it was in reference to the conversation you were told to stop earlier, which was all about insults. Stop purposely trying to cause trouble, and if you aren't, it seems like it.

2006-01-26 [Jeesum Crowe]: Stop accusing me of these things I'm not doing and maybe I won't get so pissed.

2006-01-26 [Kai Crewger]: bickering

2006-01-26 [Paul Doyle]: Go throw the virtual chairs on the virtual Jerry Springer show, please. Not here. ET has enough drama queens already. We don't need more.

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: XD Is that a roundabout reference to all the members with "My life isn't worth living" plastered in their houses?

2006-01-26 [Leara]: I thought the new thing was that 'You can ask me 5 questions, anyrthing about me, and I have to answer' crap, as though other members care enough about them to bother with that crap. :P

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Hm, that is, but the "My life isn't worth a damn" crap is still there. Classic. I'm rather partial to the "If I was locked up in your room for 24 hours etc." line. Personally, if I was in with them for twenty-four hours, there'd be a hell of a lot of screaming and not a small amount of squishy-flesh-on-bonesaw noises.

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: And I thought it was 4 questions? :P

2006-01-26 [Leara]: I dunno, I thought I read five. XD One of my friends said his response to the '24 hours in your room' one was something along the lines of getting out of the house immediatly, then torching it to the ground. ^^;;;

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: It has merit, but then what's the fun? Unless of course you got to see them jumping around like a fool batting at the flames... 0.0; Modified plan: Include a lighter and aerosol with bonesaw. <.<; >.>;

2006-01-26 [Leara]: O.O Missing anything?

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Yeah... I can't afford the car to hide the body in, damnit.

2006-01-26 [windowframe]: I use those four question, must answer honestly ones '1) What is your current elftown account password? 2) What will your next Elftown account password be? 3) What will your elftown account password be tomorrow? 4) Do you realise how stupid vowing to answer four questions any stranger asks you honestly is now?

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Ooh, those are possibly the best questions of all time. And here's me asking where they lived, their exact address, and where their spare key was XD

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: The last question being do they like answering questions honestly any more.

2006-01-26 [windowframe]: :P See, I'm not as vindictive *innocent* I don't care to make them incredibly paranoid; I just want to get rid of those stupid little messages :D

2006-01-26 [Leara]: lol, stupid children. Foolish prey for some creepy 40yr old man with a huge beer gut and lolita complex.

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Awwww, but to make them paranoid is so much fun *Pouts* Just imagine, them sat up all night with the kitchen knife (or daddy's pistol) in the dark, barely able to breathe in case they miss that fatal floorboard creaking... Hehehe, I think I should be admitted to psychiatric care, seriously.

2006-01-26 [Kai Crewger]: *shudders* not a very happy mind picture. I always wonder, especially if they don't have pics or anything, whether anyone on ET really is who they say they are

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: "Lolita complex"? *New term not-knowing-ness*

2006-01-26 [windowframe]: I don't :) I'm an 'innocent until proven guilty' kinda person, Unless I have a reason to suspect they're lying, I'll generally believe people.

2006-01-26 [Kai Crewger]: "Lolita complex" is generally used to describe really old perverts with a thing for little girls. Like, middle school or below, or something like that

2006-01-26 [Leara]: Lolita are sexy young girls...like adolescent girls, so I'd say if someone has a lolita complex, he's probaly finds little girls attractive. :P

2006-01-26 [NamelessMerc]: Unless they have obviously professional photographs, I tend to believe people myself...

2006-01-27 [NamelessMerc]: Ah, lolita means little girl. Gotcha.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: XD

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: ie - Lolita. Page 64? Anyway, [Leara] - I'm not sure I appreciate you slagging off people with huge beer guts. As a guard, and all, I'm sure you're meant to be some kind of representative since you're trying to remove all the fun bickering from these pages. 'Huge beer guts' was an offensive stereotype coined with paedophilia, along with 40 year olds, and I can't appreciate it on this wiki... since it's official. ;)

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Gotta be fair. I am offended by your comment. I would like you to take it back. Humourless git, here. Who has a sense of humour, but you know... You're putting some people in bad light by stereotype. Thanks not very much.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: It was meant to portray the stereotypical creepy old man. Most that strike fear into young girls don't have a 6-pack. :P Unless someone else has a better way to describe one of those creepy men, since the stereotype fits all the ones that have ever hit on me. >.>

2006-01-27 [Leara]: I didn't say every man with a gut likes little girls now did I?

2006-01-27 [Leara]: I said men with a lolita complex....which is completely different than saying 'prey for a 40yr old man with a beer gut, because they all have a lolita complex.' Stop trying to revive an argument. Your twisting what I said, if I had said it in the way your implying, I would have been insulting half the males in my family.

2006-01-27 [Duredhel]: Ok ok guys, stop it, take yer arguments to the ring.. ehr... I mean.... roleplay.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: hmm...... well.... I agree tat was stereotyping...but...that's a bit extreme, deus. (3rd-person-perspective. Take it or leave it.)

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: I'm a judge. ^.^ But I imagine I'd win anyway, HAW HAW. J/K I leave it [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*] - if you want to believe stereotypes are wrong, you have to except the word 'nigger' in the process. I imagine that's what you're referring to? Otherwise... Heh. I won't accept double standards, even if I can be over-ruled. Supposing sense removes the use of a stereotype, logic in such stereotypes removes any use of one no matter what. If this discussion is 'official', might as well be politically correct. If not, might as well allow the arguments I want. That's all.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: that's true. I had a great philosophy argument today about why things are the way they are. It was so much fun. But only after the third person (me, boyfriend, her) realized that my boyfriend was arguing because he likes arguing (much like me; we never get to hurting each other tho.. ^^)

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Regardless, what I said was obviously used in a joking manner, not a serious manner that should offend someone. You could have explained your view clearly and not have sugar coated it in sarcasm. Either way, what you said to me was far worse.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Basically, if you want a no B/S policy, practise what you preach.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Do you have a knack for totally misinterpretted and screwing up everything someone says? >.>

2006-01-27 [Leara]: I just wanted no arguments on the page with people purposely insulting each other because they have nothing better to do. I was joking around with some people, and said something which most people know the meaning of, because its used often, and know better than taking offense thinking it means every 40 yr old man, or every man with a gut.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Far more worse? How? Because I was also being sarcastic? Riiight. Stereotypes are stereotypes, regardless. Joking manners do not reduce them to anything less. People will still be offended. You should have not put yourself into a state of double standards by offending people whilst telling people not to bitch and argue on this wiki since it's an official one. Basically, this argument is redundant. I wish to stop having it. You offended me, I offended you as is my way. You're a guard, please keep this wiki protected from arguments like this, but keep this one for 24 hours at least.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: By your standards, by simple association, my stereotype of a black man becomes acceptable and true. It isn't. It's still a stereotype. I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying. I just don't think what you said was right. I'm still offended. You're still using association as a means to link my father to having a lolita complex. Still, thanks.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: What I'm trying to say, is that you shouldn't have been offended, since you did take what I said the wrong way, in which it wasn't meant. If I read something that offends me, though I know the person didn't mean it in the way I interpreted, I'm not going to get sarcastic with them, and say somthing back in order to offend them back. I can't even explain it any clearer, if I could, you'd get the point that it doesn't link your father, or mine, or any of my other male family members to a lolita complex. >.>

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: *points to deus* she (SHe??) has a point.But then, we use stereotypes every day. not just on people, even. Who said all oranges are orange? I didn't! I've seen yellowy ones! And what about limes? Plenty of yellowy ones too. And apples? Lots of green ones out there, not just red. ...My point being, you take away ALL stereotypes, things get a lot more complicated and our entire speech would have to change. And what Leara's saying is kind of the thing of all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. Except I'm definitely not agreeing that all men with a Lolita complex are 40 and have a beer belly. I've seen enough examples in my short little life to know otherwise

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: But you're a guard, and you're telling people not to argue, yet you're giving me the perfect basis to argue. I didn't take anything the wrong way. You're assuming I'm of sensitive disposition otherwise. You made a stereotype which offends my family and I do not care of the manner it was made it. You're you. I'm me. You have to consider opinions beyond your own as a result of being a guard. I didn't say it in order to offend you - you said half the males in your family have a thing for their daughters. Lolita was 12. Unless you wish to clarify that point?

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Not all follow that description, thats why its a stereotype, I've seen guys with lolita complexes that were young, and really hot, and not scary at all. The stereotype plays more on a young girls fears, thats why its used.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: I didn't say that, I said half the men in my family are middle aged with guts. The point was that because they are middle aged with guts, does NOT mean they have a lolita complex, becuase none of them do.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: You're still offending my by calling my father scary. Really, stereotypes = bad. I know beyond this argument I'm just playing the devil's advocate, but I still have every reason to be offended and you're not doing a single thing to justifying offending me. You're a fucking guard. [Nita] as the one I know best is beyond such idiocy.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: that is true... that is not a pleasant image to imagine a guy hitting on you with, so I can see why it's become a stereotype. Definitely not condoning the widespread use of stereotypes tho. You just have to be careful.

2006-01-27 [Duredhel]: Uhm.. Leara, you mentioned that men with Lolita complexes fit the stereotype because men that have hit on you looked like that but... you do realize you're nowhere near the age of what would be considered a lolita (up to around 13 or 15) right?.... Silvie's gonna have so much fun here with the delete button. ^_^

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: look... being a guard means that basically you have more power. Guards ARE human, just like the rest of us. I think your expectations are a little high. And in addition, this was NOT part of Leara's official duty as a guard! Why should she (she, right?) have to act any different than the rest of us ESPECIALLY off-duty?

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Should have said that then. Again - a foible within your points. We obviously agree, but I am still offended. The stereotype was unnecessary. It's as simple as that. It's late, I'm bored. I have nothing better to do, but still... if you want arguments - you might as well not give other people reasons to argue. Since this has lasted more than a page... I think the point I'm making was justified.

2006-01-27 [Faulty Limerence]: This page WAS made for the conversations so there is no real reason to delete any of it.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: I'm probaly gonna delete it all myself. :P I didn't say what age I was when I was hit on, did I? :P Oh yes, being a guard, doens't make someone a Saint. being a guard, doesn't mean I have to act like a goody goody that naturally gets along with everyone. :P Your not going to get rid of stereotypes either, I get stereotyped all the time, but you have to suck it up, and face that its a part of our culture.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: Yes she probably is... ^^

2006-01-27 [Duredhel]: I meant this was probably going to get erased due to the degree of animosity in this conversation.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: As I said earlier, if you have a better was to describe what I meant in the comment that offended to you, then I'd like to hear it. = . =

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: yeah. I mean weren't you JUST stereotyping her for being a guard, deus?? A little hypocritical on your part, wasn't it??

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: I don't think any topics should be censored as long as they remain in RPing context. Let them argue. It's my point. I got 'offended' over something a guard said, so obviously said guard is either incompetant or just not willing to let all debates go. People should have somewhere to talk. This is where the creators have been directing all off-topic subjects. I want a seperate page for things like this for people to argue to their hearts content and talk absolute crap on the topic of the tournament. I'm a firestarter really - just trying to justify my reason for an independant page.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: I understood what you were saying... but that doesn't mean much. I look at things really weirdly sometimes... >.>

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: fine! Here's a page to be annoying! Annoying people BLOG! argue all you like, be as much of a stupid ______ (*ahem* >_>) as you like there!

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: [Leara] - please give it at least 24 hours before you go on a delete spree. Please do afterwards. Just let allow [iippo] and [windowframe] see it first. =)

2006-01-27 [Leara]: My point with not wanting argueing here, is that most official pages frown upon, even when open for discussion. Then I joke around and get a firecracker up my ass. >.>

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Umm....why would I want them to see it first? Leaving it up defeats the purpose of deleting it in the first place. :P

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Guards should set an example for behaviour. Otherwise stereotypes shouldn't be classed as asshole-ish behaviour, which they are. Guards are the equivilent to admins and moderators on forums and it's hardly fair for them to get away with one thing and for users to be punished for the same thing. Fuck, I'm not saying their saints. You have me all wrong, but they do set a standard and they do represent the site.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: I'm not leaving it up for them to make a decision. Give me 20 minutes then. If you insist to, delete it all then.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: Look, as long as the guards aren't directly disobeying the rules, they can do whatever the hell they please!!! They're aLLOWED to make mistakes! They're HUMAN!!! They're just like you or me, except they are deemed responsible enough to use their power to punish in a reasonable and fair manner! That's it!

2006-01-27 [Leara]: You have to remember that guards are users on the site before guards. It was never my intention to argue, only try and explain what I meant.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Thank you [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*].

2006-01-27 [Leara]: And I'm only deleting the really bad comments.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: You're welcome! On another site I never knew someone was a mod till they said so. XP wasn't smart enough to interpret their power-symbol thingy...didn't know it WAS a power-symbol-thingy....so yeah. That's just the way it goes. This was fun, though! I like to argue! As long as it's agreed that nothing said will hurt! I don't like to hurt people!

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: *sigh* Sure. They're human. But by such a means, I can use stereotypes all I like now. Right? Nah. Me nit-picking? Definitely. They're allowed to make mistakes, but by the same logic, I'm allowed to make the same mistakes by the same logic. This argument isn't going to go anywhere but support what I've wanted all along. And it's not going to happen as an official wiki page. Let them bitch. Let them slander. All for fun, and all for glee. If they're responsible enough, they should know the consequences of reactions and I know Leara does - however, by such - lolita complex stereotype = black person stereotype, so I'm allowed to call everyone a nigger. Sorry... 'nigga'.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: I'm not black....... oO ....and wanna hear something ridiculous? Someone actually took offense when I said that, saying that I shouldn't call "people of african descent" (let's get Politically-Correct here!) black. -.-;;;; this CAN be taken to severe extremes. Do you see what I meant by omitting stereotypes taking away our daily language now?

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Different stereotypes carry different weights. :P A racial stereotype....is racial...its a lot harsher than one that only uses a common description that makes it easy to understand. You can't give the same weight to someone stereotyping me and calling me goth for wearing a certain color as you would for someone making a black stereotype....thats a huge gap between them. >.<;;

2006-01-27 [Jeesum Crowe]: That's the second time someone's been mad at Leara. I sense a pattern.

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Leara - your opinion of differentiation between levels of stereotypes is your own. Because you and some others believe the same doesn't mean one is more extreme than another. They're all wrong and if they are to be eradicated, they should be considered equal. Simple and pure.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: Try going a week without making one stereotype. I don't think anyone realizes just how much we stereotype, and as [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*] pointed out, how much its integrated into our language. Someone can say they don't stereotype, but I garauntee if you pay enough attention, you'll find them using one without realizing it. :P

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Of course - but you made one by making point, not by off sightly making reference to a term. You described one. Anyway - conversation saved. Delete away. =)

2006-01-27 [Leara]: yyeaaaah...

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: Uh huh. Either way - I can make reference to whatever you delete. Might as well keep it? Heh. Honestly, you made a boo boo and I'm not innocent and you're not necessary or holy, but you're not free from sin and that doesn't deserve sympathy because you're a guard. You offended whilst insisting people shouldn't offend. Since you're a guard, you should prevent this. Obviously, you aided offence, although you didn't, the point is there. Humour. Guard. Rarely compatible. Not when you're talking about good behaviour.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: I also think that different situations call for different levels of protecting one's speech against stereotypes. For instance, when I'm alone with some very close friends or family, I use different language than when I'm making a public speech (haven't done that a lot though), which would be different still from if I were writing a letter to a politician. A lot has to do with formality of speech. If we're using formal speech, making a few common generally accepted MILD stereotypes would be more acceptable than in formal speech. And any non-mild stereotypes should NEVER be used.

2006-01-27 [I'm her Georgia *Peach!*]: and as a rule of thumb, NEVER NEVER use the words "all" or "always"

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: I love Pearl Jam. I think that sums it up, lol. =D Anyway, I will discuss this if it survives deletion. Not tonight though. Someone with more authority than me should feel more responsibility towards setting an example though.

2006-01-27 [Leara]: And you put guards on far to high of a pedestal. As a guard, I refrain from harassing others, breaking the UAR, and purposely insulting others. By random someone was offended by something I said...As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I did wrong, was let the argument persist. My duties are to make sure the rules are followed, not to be a role model. :P

2006-01-27 [deus-ex-machina]: 'All' - Who believes stereotypes are right? Accepting is one thing. Generalising is another. I honestly feel dumb in this wiki - but with guards, I feel restrained by how I can debate. All and always are generally shitty terms, but still, unless we have fascists among us, stereotypes are still wrong.